By: Jeff Maurer
Andy Kline recently wrote an excellent blog about “genre shows”— shows that play to a specific comedy niche. I recommend that you read the whole blog, but, basically, his point is this: genre shows hurt comedy because they allow comedians to hide from challenges.
Andy’s complaints about genre shows are dead on. Most genre shows are obnoxious. They’re first and foremost about reinforcing the audience’s identity. Moving merchandise is the second priority, and launching terrible movies is the third; providing good comedy is maybe seventh or eighth on the priorities list. And genre shows are only part of the problem—more and more these days, comedians are selling themselves as genre comedians. Think of some of the comedians who have gotten really big in recent years: one is the redneck guy, one is the frat guy, and one is the Mexican guy. The fact that you don’t need their names to know who I’m talking about just goes to show how much their identities overshadow their comedy.
But the self-segregation of comedy is only part of the story. Andy calls out genre shows, then discusses how comedians used to challenge themselves by “crossing over”—playing rooms that draw different types of audiences. He’d like to see more of that nowadays. That’s where he and I differ. I don’t like genre shows, but I’m also not eager to return to an era in which comedians are obsessed with crossing over.
[Hit the jump for more thoughtful deliberation! Do it!]
Here’s what I think of when I think of crossing over. A few years ago, I was emceeing in a Def Jam-type room. Please note: “Def Jam” is not a euphemism for “black.” “Def Jam” is a euphemism for “combative.” To explain this to non-comedians: black crowds are like white crowds; they come to a show to see comedy, and they give bonus points for comedy they find relatable. Def-Jam crowds, however, aren’t there for comedy at all: they’re there to judge the comedians. They use the first 30 seconds of your set to decide whether they love you or hate you, and they use the remainder of your set to either cheer you like a war hero or boo you mercilessly. I got booed all week.
After one particularly rough set, I brought up a guest act. I had met the guest act briefly before the show; he was a non-descript white guy from California wearing a baseball hat. But that wasn’t the comedian who came to the stage; the comedian I brought on stage was a strutting, swaggering jack-ass wearing a backwards baseball hat and speaking with what I call the “MTV accent.” His first joke was about how bad I was. His second and third jokes were about whitey. From there, he did some of the hackiest, dirtiest crowd-work I’ve ever seen, culminating with this line: “I’ll bet black women’s pussy taste like fried chicken!” He was a god—the crowd absolutely loved him. He had successfully crossed over.
In comedy, this man will judge you.
Now, I’m positive that Andy isn’t advocating this type of comedy when he encourages comedians to cross over. That story is an extreme example. And Andy isn’t encouraging comics to play different rooms so that they can pander to the audience; he’s encouraging comedians to challenge the audience. But I think an implicit part of Andy’s argument is that crossing over makes you a better comic because you’re forced to learn the tastes and preferences of different audiences—you learn to adjust. And that’s all fine, but I think that this also needs to be said: there have to be limits on how much a comedian changes him or herself to please the audience.
As many comedians have noted, comedy mixes styles and genres more than any other form of entertainment. Most comedy shows are advertised only as “comedy”—no other form of entertainment does this. You’ll never see a Cineplex marquee that just says “Movie!” No concert has ever featured four unnamed musical acts that turn out to be a metal band, a rap group, an opera singer, and a country jamboree. But this type of thing happens all the time in comedy. The range of tastes that comedians are expected to satisfy is already ridiculously broad.
It isn’t good for comedy when incredible breadth is a prerequisite for success. We had that atmosphere once, back in the 1980’s. Back then (and, obviously, I’m relying on the recollections of people who were actually there), there was only one way to make it: you got on The Tonight Show, and if Johnny waved you over to the couch after your set, you were in. Of course, The Tonight Show, even then, featured very broad humor; remember, it was the only game in town for the entire country at 11:30. So, basically, you either wrote jokes that appealed to everyone in the country—including 14-year-old boys, 60-year-old widows, soccer moms, drug addicts, and everyone in between—or you didn’t make it. Period. That’s unbelievably constrictive.
To be fair, that era produced some truly great comics. But it also produced a remarkable number of hacks. Remember all the guys in sweaters doing observational humor on Evening at the Improv—the comics Jerry Seinfeld made fun of on SNL’s Stand Up and Win sketch? Those were all guys who were trying to get on The Tonight Show. When comics try too hard to be all things to all people, comedy gets limited to the five topics to which everyone can relate: TV, work, dogs, relationships, and air travel. It’s pretty bleak.
What’s the deal with this thing? Do we really need this much Mountain Dew?
But the hacks don’t bother me as much as the true tragedy of the 1980s system: all the great comics who didn’t make it. The system back then put so much emphasis on breadth that there wasn’t much room left for comics with a great deal of appeal to a narrow segment of the audience. When I ask myself whether a lot of my favorite comedians—such as Paul F. Tompkins, Eddie Izzard, and Todd Barry—would have made it during the 1980s, the answer is probably “no.” They just aren’t broad enough. If the Balkanization of comedy is bad because it rewards jokes that aren’t funny, then the homogenization of comedy is bad because it punishes jokes that are funny.
That’s not only unfair to the comedians—it’s also unfair to the audience. Putting aside your opinion of Kat Williams for a minute, ask yourself: who was the Kat Williams of the 1980s? I don’t think there was one. Or, more accurately, there probably was one, but we never heard of him because he wasn’t broad enough to make it on The Tonight Show. There is obviously a market for Kat Williams’ humor; it just happens to be a deep, narrow market instead of a broad, shallow one.
The Maria Bamford of the 1980s.
Of course, Andy and I aren’t actually very far apart on this issue. I don’t think that Andy is arguing for homogenization; I think that he wants comics to challenge themselves, and he’s also reacting to the arrogant “I’m above the audience” attitude that some comics adopt. And I agree with both points. Comedians should challenge themselves—anyone can make their friends laugh, but comedians are supposed to be able to make strangers laugh. And a comedian should always go onstage with the goal of making the audience laugh; if you want to create high art, go write a symphony. Comedy is entertainment.
What I’m advocating is essentially a balance. Comedians should challenge themselves by trying to make different types of crowds laugh, but they should stay within the parameters of their actual personality and taste. And I’m okay with genre shows, but only if the comics use the opportunities those shows provide to produce quality comedy instead of pandering crap.
Andy ends his blog with a music analogy: Nirvana, he says, made great music because they weren’t afraid to challenge their audience. He’s right, but there’s more to the story. Nirvana became Nirvana because they didn’t care about cultivating broad appeal. Seattle in the late ‘80s was a second city without a lot of “industry” floating around (sound familiar?). There was no hope of making it, so there was also no point in making the type of music that was likely to get you a record deal. So they made the type of music that they liked, and it’s a good thing, too: Kurt Cobain probably wouldn’t have been any good at teasing his hair and playing virtuoso guitar solos. There was a segment of the population that was never going to like them, and they were fine with that. Which is something that comedians should always keep in mind: after all, during the best set of your life, 20 percent of the audience hated you. In comedy, you can’t please all the people all the time. So, fuck it: don’t try.
22 comments:
I have to say that I am okay with genre comedy. Maybe because of the fact I am a genre comic myself I can live with that and for those of you wondering what type edgy. Lets face it there is nothing wrong with playing towards your strengths I'm a guy so I will use sports metaphors Warrick Dunn when he was with Tampa Bay was known for being able to find holes and get large gains but if were a 3rd or 4th down with a yard to go they would give it to Mike Alscott because thats what he is good at. Even though I'm edgy its diverese from jokes that I can tell on Leno to ones that would get me kicked out of hell all I am trying to say is people need play to their strengths. Now some people are all around like Arod and good for them but for most we fall into a certain genre weather it be country, christian, or blue etc. Now I am not saying you shouldn't try to branch out and try new things but like the saying goes if aint broke dont fix it.
I agree with everything you said except for this: "if you want to create high art, go write a symphony. Comedy is entertainment."
I disagree with that for a few reasons.
1. It implies that a symphony isn't entertainment.
2. It implies that entertainment and high art are mutually exclusive.
3. More explicitly, it implies that comedy cannot be high art.
And while I agree that unlike many art forms, because the stated aim of comedy is to make many people produce the very specific response of laughter it is usually more relatable than some pieces of "high art," I also believe that comedy can be just as complex, subtle and nuanced as many pieces of "high art." And frankly, there are many pieces of high art which are just as relatable as comedy.
I don't think there's a seasoned comic out there who would deny that comedy can be extremely subtle, and the difference between a gutbusting laugh and a deafening silence can be pausing just slightly too long, or saying "olive" instead of "caper." The reasons for that may be so complex that we can't articulate them without appealing to words like morphemes, cadences and fricatives, and maybe most comics don't care to analyze it to that degree, but sure enough those reasons exist.
In classical music and other works there is always a tension between display (what is accessible and enjoyable to an audience) and discourse (what shows a mastery of the craft). Some people err on the side of too much display, i.e., they pander, and produce things like melodrama or stock genre pieces (e.g., hacky RomComs). Other people err on the side of too much discourse and produce pieces that are technically impressive but have no appeal (e.g., a lot of atonal contemporary music). A balance is needed, and struck by some (Mozart is probably the most popular example in classical music, but I would also be comfortable citing the cohen brothers). There are artists who produce work that is both technically masterful and able to be enjoyed by wide audiences. The mere fact that lots of people enjoy a piece doesn't make it low art, it is just that low art aspires specifically to appeal to the most people, wheras high art aspires to articulate an individual or clear artistic perspective, and sometimes that does not appeal to as many people and sometimes it does.
The kind of technical mastery involved in the works of Buster Keaton or Charlie Chaplin, or in the stand up of Steve Martin or Jerry Seinfeld, or in the films of Woody Allen shouldn't be relegated to low art just because they make us laugh. It's easy to say that because something is not serious in its content it also isn't serious in its form, structure or effect, but I think that if you look through history you'll see that great comedians and satirists have dealt with deadly serious topics (e.g., Swift's A Modest Proposal) and had huge effect on cultural development, at least as much as many other accomplished high artists.
Aside from that, I'm in agreement, there's always someone who is going to hate you, so instead of trying to appeal to everyone, try to find something that is both true to you and appealing to enough other people to make it worth pursuing. That's my aim anyway.
As always, I’m gonna write something long. If you don’t want to read it just read the last line or so, I think that’ll sum things up nicely.
So it’s hard to take such a silly inflammatory response seriously, but I’m bored and this seems like a good opportunity to write about the false dichotomy that is often presupposed to exist between being intellectual and being passionate. The fact that I enjoy analyzing things and thinking about ideas doesn’t mean that I’m not passionate about what I do. This is just my way of interpreting and understanding the world, and I find that it helps me improve at a lot of things including comedy. If all I did was sit around and theorize to the exclusion of writing and performing comedy you might have a point, but I don’t think anyone who knows anything about me or my comedy would suggest that that’s the case.
Remember I’m not sitting here claiming that my way is the only or best way, I’m not claiming that you have to be as analytical as I am to be successful or a good comedian. It’s just my way of doing things; and you’re right that it is in part because I got my BA in philosophy (at Oberlin College, not Yale). But it’s absurd for you to suggest that my way is somehow wrong because it’s “thinky.” This is exactly the kind of anti-intellectual crap that Stephen Colbert lampoons when he talks about how he thinks with his gut and doesn’t like books.
Woody Allen, Steven Wright, Jerry Seinfeld, Steve Martin, Eugene Mirman, Jon Stewart, Zach Galifianakis, Demetri Martin, Patton Oswalt
That’s an incredibly short list of comics who could be described as too thinky or smart. They all went to college and all but two got a degree. You’re going to tell me that they’re not great comics because they think too much? Again, this isn't to say that you have to get a degree or go to college to be a good comedian, but it seems absurd that it should be frowned upon.
There’s a spectrum of comedy from the lowest common denominator up to humor that requires a large degree of background knowledge to appreciate. One is not inherently ‘better’ than the other in any cosmic sense, but to suggest that because I do some stuff that’s on the more intellectual side of things that is somehow worse, well that seems kind of ridiculous. Clearly there is room for both slapstick, fart jokes, and clever wordplay, and to suggest that only one is legitimate is kind of dumb.
Also, in the last thing you wrote about making people laugh “regardless of where they’re from, what color they are or how much money they… (and then you left out a word),” you’ve somehow managed to suggest that because I’m a ‘thinky’ comedian my material is somehow racist or classist. That’s an insane jump and it kind of ignores the whole thing Jeff Maurer was saying about doing material that is true to yourself and not trying to water it down to appeal to everyone. For better or worse, my material is a representation of my perspective on the world and I wouldn’t have it any other way.
So in conclusion, I guess what I’m trying to say is: You don’t know me, asshole. Go fuck yourself.
Mike, your comments are sharp and dead on, but also really boring and dull. I think people would be more inclined to read all of your thoughts if you practiced the art of editing.
Yo, they are without doubt inappropriately long for blog responses. As for whether they are boring and dull, I think that depends on whether you like reading things written in the rhetorical style of philosophy essays -- which I do. This is not to say I write the best philosophy essays, but the ones I wrote in college were pretty all right.
I mean I'm trying to go explore something I care a lot about. Conciseness is valuable but for me it's more important to just sort of toss out the ideas and words around and see what comes out. I'll readily admit that I do this more for selfish reasons (i.e., it is helping me develop and articulate my views on comedy) than for reader enjoyment, but I figure some people might dig it, and that the bottom line is that this isn't my primary medium for engaging lots of people, that would be my comedy, which I try to edit and balance between self-expression and what audience enjoyment (discourse and display as described above).
I guess I'm just saying that your point about editing may be right in principle but I think there are also stylistic issues in play and I'm not sure I care enough to make the effort involved in editing here.
Incidentally, I was amused that in a post about redundancy you used two pairs of synonyms (sharp and dead on) and (boring and dull). This is not to invalidate your point, I just thought it was funny.
Better paragraphs of "long-winded dribble" than one line of empty name calling.
If you think my ideas are wrong you're welcome to debate them on their merits but if big blocks of words strung together in coherent sentences are too scary for you to read and respond to I guess you could just whip out some insults and be done with it. Oh, and also if you could remain anonymous when you do it that would be great, because anonymous name calling is clearly the way grown men and women should deal with their disagreements in a perfect world. Thank god for the internet, it's really freed people up to act like complete assholes with impunity.
Have a nice day, troll.
jeff maurer must be so pissed right now.
ps- yeah mike, why the fuck would you analyze comedy in response to a blog that analyzes comedy on a site that's meant to discuss comedy? save it for the classroom, kierkegaard.
"If you think my ideas are wrong you're welcome to debate them on their merits"
Not at all. Your thoughts are well thought out. I just find them extremely boring to read. Every comment you leave is extremely boring to read.
"Oh, and also if you could remain anonymous when you do it that would be great"
Sure, no problem ass face.
"Yeah sorry about that Jeff... Did not mean to co-opt your post"
You are clearly not sorry. You are a self indulgent boring wind bag, but I'll give you credit you do own up to it. "I'll readily admit that I do this more for selfish reasons"
"I know that no one is forcing people to read these comments and they're completely easy to ignore"
Yes. But this is much more fun.
Careful there, you had like 8 paragraphs in that post. Someone might call you a faggot.
You're not even a very good troll. Read up and get back to me when you're ready.
Can you guys just e-makeout and get it over with.
:-*
I'm sure you lose the audience with all your articulate dribble as you do in here!
Yes because clearly what I do is get up on stage at a comedy show and give lectures about my thoughts on comedy. You know me so well my friend, pray tell if you're not busy in the next few months might I pay you to ghost write my autobiography?
I'm done writing on this post. Maybe you can be an asshole again the next time I write some of my thoughts on comedy. I know it must strike you as odd that I get on this comedy blog to write thoughts about comedy and not to anonymously attack people, but that is what I'm here for, the rest of this arguing is just retarded. Thank you for helping me waste part of my life.
I think we should all probably assume that when somebody posts anonymously on this board, there's a 90 percent chance that it's one of our friends fucking with us.
Let's go back to Mike's first comment - I'll weigh in with my opinions on who is and isn't a faggot some other time. Mike, I'm on the fence about whether comedy is or isn't art. It's definitely a craft - it's something that you work on and get better at - but whether it's art...I guess more than anything else I don't really care. I included the "go write a symphony" line because I don't like the pretentious attitude that some comics have - the attitude that their comedy is so creative and so brilliant that it can never be altered and the audience should be grateful to witness it. That attitude is a cop out - it's an excuse for not getting laughs. It's ironic that I'm writing this because the whole point of the blog was that there are times when you have to just say "fuck it" and write the audience off. But comics should realize that if the audience didn't laugh, then you've failed on some level. You have to at least TRY to entertain the crowd.
I want to thank Mike and the anonymous person for making my Wednesday morning "pretty entertained". I don't want to jinx it so I'll just wait and hope that it picks up again someday when no one expects it.... like my on-again, off-again basketball rivalry with Reggie Miller.
I second Tyler's comment. Watching this spat unfold made Poosday go by much faster.
I think it is pretty clear that comedy can be high art. This is not to say that it should be, or needs to be but come on, this shouldn't be up for debate. Shakespere wrote comedies for christ's sake.
What is and isn't art is some boring shit to discuss so I'll take a slightly different route. People don't just laugh because stuff is funny. Girls laugh because they think a guy is cute, you laugh at your boss's joke because he's your boss. It isn't necessarily fake laughter, but a guy being cute or someone being your boss doesn't make them any funnier.
Comediens too can make people laugh without being funny. The big way to do this is by proving that you have shit in common with people. You can point out obvious stuff that everyone hates like commercials or long lines. You can signal that you have a shared experience "Who here watched thundercats growing up?"
I'm not going to say this tactic is illegitimate, because that would be idiotic, but it can be a crutch. I think you can please an audience without satisfying them, and if you can you should try and not to do that.
Well said.
I think comedy is a envelope of a different assorted candies that make the opener of the package the embodiement of what it is that is truely an emphemeral event that happens but with the object im mind of being inside the cognitive place of the audience whereby they can walk to their cars after the show and think that not only did they enjoy the "package" that they just opened but they enjoyed the packager as well and enjoying the packeger is just as important as the package and if by sometime you want to make art out of comedy or vice versa and it really is art no matter how you look at it and even Chris Rocks said so once while he was accepting an award.
Farts are funny.
I think Andy's point, really, was that a good many comics are not challenging themselves any more to grow and truly improve like they should. They're babying themselves. I don't see an answer to that statement, from anyone.
Comedy is all about who you are as a person and crafting an act to reflect it...as it evolves. A quality A-room headliner can kill in front of a wide variety of audiences in large part because they are presenting their true selves. I think, a lot of comics out there across the country think they've found their voice, that it's that easy.
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