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Friday, April 4, 2008

The Side That's Winning

By: Andy Kline

The first time I ever did stand-up comedy was back in 1994 at the age of 19. I did it basically as a hobby for about two years, then drifted away. In the spring of '98, I came back into it full force. I don't remember the exact date, but I think my first time ever on stage was the last Wednesday in March, '94 - about a month after Bill Hicks died, and about a week before Kurt Cobain did. The number one song in the country was "Wet Banana" by The Floaters, a loaf of bread cost -12 cents, and only the wealthy had knees.

To characterize DC comedy as a "scene" back then would be a disservice to the word. There was no scene. It was just a collection of comics doing a few open-mic's together. There was adequate stage time, but not much in the way of ambition or identity. The word most frequently used when discussing comedy wasn't hack, or original, or unicorns. It was crossover. Everybody was talking about crossing over.


There were a lot more black rooms in DC back then. If you were white and wanted to get on stage more than once or twice a week, you would have to venture out to Mr. Henry's in Adams Morgan, or one of the Comedy Connection rooms. You would have to risk getting booed or heckled. You would occasionally have utensils thrown in your general direction. Likewise, black comics looking for time would have to hit The Comedy Café on K Street, or Headliners in Bethesda. They would have to risk getting ostracized by the pervasive "Def Jam" label. But, we all tried to cross over. It was important to relate to unfamiliar crowds. It helped you grow. Sure, some people did it in a hacky way, but most of us had a fair amount of integrity.

old school comedy
photo courtesy of
Flickr and timparkinson

Historically, that's what comedy has been – people crossing over. Just look at the way comedy is marketed. The majority of comedy bio's you read say, in essence, that this is someone who is different from you. From a different background than you. With a unique slant and fresh perspective on the world. If you believe what you read, there are literally thousands of unique slants and fresh perspectives out there, playing every out of the way Hysteri-Hut and Tickle Trap in the country. The message a comedy crowd is given is this: you won't agree with everything this comic says, but he'll show you what's funny about his point of view. Not that comedy audiences have ever fully embraced that message, but it's essentially what they're told.

But, comedy has been changing for the last few years. It's being splintered into all kinds of various genres. Somewhere, on any given night, you might find yourself at an alternative show called, "Grown Men Who Still Watch Cartoons." Or maybe an urban show called, "Somebody Say Ha." Possibly even an all-female extravaganza called, "The Drapes Match the Rug-Pulls." In every city that has a comedy scene, comedians are banding together in neatly packaged little groups: the black show, the not-like-the-other-blacks show, the redneck show, the Arab show, the alternative show, etc. In some ways, it's no different than developing a hook; the "GIT-R-DONE" it's okay to like, if you will. But in other ways, it's killing people's growth.

this set up killed at the Trekkie convention
photo courtesy of
Flickr and Idea-Listic

The crowds at a genre show are agreeable. They don't challenge the comedian, and the comedian doesn't challenge them. And that's the dirty little secret: you don't have to be that funny anymore. They like you because of what you represent. If you're an alternative comic, you can get away with dropping transformers references and displaying fake creativity by talking about genies and robots and elves. The crowd is there to root for you. You're a cause more than a comic, and this is your pep rally. The same can be said for the black comic leaning on the white-guy-voice on urban night, or countless other examples. Genre shows advocate indulgence. And they stifle growth.

It's just like a national headliner who finally gets his own audience of devoted fans, then winds up catering to them completely. Listen to Sam Kinison's CD Leader of the Banned, if you need a reference. By the time it came out, he had reached a point in his career when he could just yell FAGGOT into the microphone and his crowds would cheer. His bits got lazy and the comedy suffered, yet he still destroyed (he did find his roots again on Live From Hell). Check out Dane Cook's Vicious Circle special. Not that he has ever been a good comic in my opinion, but that special lacked any creativity or imagination. It was a bunch of shared-experiences done with energy and an arched back. And his fans ate it up. Have you ever watched a Margaret Cho special and wondered what the hell everybody's laughing at?

Now, those comics had years of experience in comedy, and they still couldn't resist the temptation to indulge and cater to their crowds. But, what if you're a brand new comic who latches onto one of these scenes? You've just started comedy and you already have what is essentially your crowd. What happens when that crowd forgives your mistakes and laughs extra hard anyway? Well, what happens is a generation of thin-skinned comics who lack polish and development.

Bill Burr wrote a blog, roughly a month ago, about his early days in comedy. He mentioned that, once he found his voice, he deliberately went up in front of audiences that were hostile. That may have come as a revelation to some, but really, that's how everybody used to think. Things are so different now.

I've heard so many new comics write off a crowd because they were too old, or too rowdy, or too black. I've heard people bad-mouth crowds at A+ rooms, like the Improv, by snidely calling them "mainstream." It sounds to me like people are afraid to bomb, and they're sheltering themselves completely from that experience.

everyone can relate to nudity, am i right?
photo courtesy of
Flickr and Arbron

I deliberately mentioned Bill Hicks and Kurt Cobain at the beginning of this blog because they were two artists who constantly challenged and confronted their crowds. So does Bill Burr. Part of what makes stand-up comedy great is that it gives performers the ability to take real risks and provoke their audience. I feel like that ability is being traded in for safety and support.

I don't think the current direction of comedy is all bad. There are obvious benefits, and, if approached the right way, having a receptive crowd can be a great thing. In fact, my biggest hope is that this trend will lead to an established underground comedy scene, similar to what you see in music. The current power structure in comedy doesn't represent or expose the right people most of the time, and other avenues are sorely needed. But, does anybody even use the word crossover anymore? Does that idea even cross people's minds?

14 comments:

Unknown said...

Great post. You kind hit the trend right on the nose. But the lack of "crossover" is more of a societal trend, as music, movies, websites, and TV all are encouraging people to find their niche and just submerge. Whatever integrity was lost in pursuit of these new groupings I think will at least get people in general back into clubs and comedy shows.
There's a special breed of comedian that can and does walk into any room, ANY ROOM, and just annihilates. It's the kind of thing you can only learn by putting yourself out there and honing your stuff. Also, FARTS.

Anonymous said...

Why is everything changing!? What happen to the good old days? Back in my day we used to do comedy for a nickel! Where's my medicine?! I can't sleep with the lights on! Whats a transformer!?...zzzzzzzz

Andy Kline said...

Anonymous, I'll take the bait-
Back in my day, people signed their names when leaving blog comments. Anyway, if all you got from this blog was a bunch of old guy lamenting, you clearly lack the level of comprehension needed to understand it. I'm a comedian, which means I like to explore and analyze all kinds of ideas. I doubt you're a comedian (or at least a good one), because you obviously lack that skill. This conversation is not for you. Keep sleeping.

Jake-
You're probably right. Everything is getting more fragmented/specialized. But, most comics who seek out adversity don't wind up being the kind who can walk in to any room and do well. They eventually do find their niche and settle into it. But, the experience does give them a much higher level of confidence and swagger on stage, which is always a good thing.

Anonymous said...

As a member of the geek comedy tour, it's definatly an issue I've been thinking about.
I do think that if the only shows I did were Geek Comedy Tour shows, I would certainly be a much weaker comedian. Playing to a specific target audience makes it entirely too easy to pander. Some of my weakest jokes will destroy at geek comedy tour shows, just because they're about a geek themed suject. If I had been in the geek comedy tour within a few months of starting, I would have an incredibly inflated view of my skill level. And I know if those were still the only shows I did, I'd also have an inflated view now- I've got a massivly higher success rate there then at normal shows.

From a marketing standpoint, it'd be better just to focus solely on geek comedy stuff, but I prefer to keep it occasional, and mostly focus on club dates (yay west virginia!).

Even though it breeds laziness if done too often, there is a benifit to doing niche shows, though. There's a Jerry Seinfeld quote where he says "Good audiences help you experiment, bad audiences help you edit". Although most of the ad-libs I come up with at geek comedy shows are unusable at a normal show, it does get my brain in the habit of ad-libbing.

Putting yourself in front of easy crowds can be helpful, but not as helpful as bad crowds, or crowds that won't instantly relate to you. I get more out of Del Rios then at geek shows.

Mike Blejer said...

This was a really good post. My response is long as shit, sorry, but I hope you'll take the time to read it and let me know what you think. I tend to agree with Jake that fragmentation and niche marketing is a trend that is much larger than comedy, facilitated by the growth of the internet and the transition from hard copy to digital data for multimedia.

Because companies (in theory and increasingly in practice) no longer have to spend money to produce CDs for instance, they don't have to order a certain # of a disc for it to be worth something, they can just sell licenses to download which costs them almost nothing. This means that niche markets like classical music and genre stand up can be better served. Then when this is combined with the internet-provided ability for the consumer to state outright to the marketer what they're interested in buying, you get a bunch of people who are willing to put down money to hear people tell jokes to confirm the views they already hold.

As I said, it's not just stand-up, this new breed of preaching to the choir has obviously manifested itself in other areas, most notably politics and political entertainment, to the point where the people who watch Fox News and the people who watch MSNBC can hardly manage to communicate with one another, and oftentimes actually believe in different facts about history and the world.

Ironically this heavily postmodern and relativist situation America has found itself in is facilitated by the role of Religion in our society (it's ironic since individually most religions believe they have a monopoly on the truth, an extremely un-postmodern and anti-relativist stance -- The Pope has said that relativism is one of the greatest moral problems for the world today).

I say that it is facilitated by religion because it comes out of the desire to have different religious groups peacefully co-exist, which is related to the whole idea that everyone is "entitled" to believe what they want to believe regardless of facts. So out of control is this sense of subjective reality that recently States have begun passing measures which say that a student cannot be graded incorrectly in an Earth Sciences course for saying that the earth is only 6,000 years old.

I know it seems odd that I would tie this to the problem of genre comedy, but I really do think they are related because they are both symptoms of this "go fuck yourself I'm not listening to anything that I don't already believe and you can't convince me to listen, lalalalala I'm not listening" culture that we're developing in America (and this isn't just a conservative problem, Bill Maher is just as guilty of this brand of demagoguery as Bill O'Reily), and it is not a good place to be. When people can't listen to opposing views and can't agree on even basic truths as to what counts as good evidence and good reasoning, I don't care if you're talking about Comedy, the election, or whether or not there exists any such thing as the 'soul', if we can't start listening and thinking more better (yes, more better), we are fucked.

Anonymous said...

Yo, Effin A Andy.
You got the Juice now. Great blog.
It's Jermaine by the way. I was too lazy to log in

Anonymous said...

What the fuck you talking about Andy, it didn't matter if you were white or black, if you were funny you got time and you didn't get booed.


Half the people doing comedy in DC today would not even get on a stage back then, comedy has been watered down to comics just trying to look brilliant on stage rather than funny!

When white people see blacks doing it better they always change the rules!

Anonymous said...

Andy I am a comic and live in New York where you non funny fucks think you can come to be stars.

I have even seen your show once or twice if you want to call it a show, take my advise shut the fuck up and write more jokes.

Mike Blejer said...

See you can tell this anonymous New York comedian is destined for fame and success because he spends his time surfing the web for comedians from other cities to badmouth for no apparent reason. Indeed I hope he can take more time out of what I'm sure must be a terribly busy performing schedule to shower us with more of his pearls of wisdom.

It was Steve Martin who said that was the secret to success right? "Tell other comics to shut the fuck up, call them unfunny and if possible make broad generalizations about everyone in their geographic area, and by gosh, you're on your way to stardom."

I'm paraphrasing, but it was something like that I'm sure.

Andy Kline said...

Anonymous 1-
This isn't really a racial issue. I used the black/white example because it was my personal experience. It could have easily been city/suburb (road), or whatever else. Obviously, if you're funny, you get rewarded. The point is, in the past, people would try to win over different crowds, whereas now, they prefer to stay in their own niches. If you want to make it racial, the tipping point for this whole movement might have been the Kings of Comedy, in which a group of black comics basically "changed the rules," so to speak.

Anonymous 2-
Congratulations on having a New York City zip code!!!!! I'm sure you're very proud, since you mentioned it in the first sentence. Do you brag about it to all your non New Yorker friends? Do you tell them how you "survived" the transit strike? Do you boldly proclaim your haunts to be the best in the city? As in, "Yo, the deli next to my tiny apartment has the best Snapple in the city!"

By the way, I don't have a "show." I have a "set," or an "act." The fact that you don't understand the terminology means either:

a) You're a friend of mine who's fucking with me (my guess), or

b) You've just returned from a 3 minute midnight set at a tex-mex restaurant where you had to pay $5 and buy a drink to get on.

By the way, if you're such a proud New Yorker, sign your name next time. Although, I'm thinking every time somebody asks you for your name, you just scream NEW YORK really loud. Just remember, even if you think NYC is the greatest city in the world, it got that way in spite of you, not because.

Andy Kline said...

Blejer-

I think a lot of what you're saying is true, and people definitely are preaching to the choir. But, art doesn't just have to be a reflection of what else is going on. Art can also be subversive (not that most comedians are artists, but still).

I don't see any cynicism or subversion going on among most newer comedians. Sure, we've got Chris Rock, South Park, etc. But not a lot of young successors to them. I guess the real question is, is comedy art? And if so, what is the artists responsibility?

Mike Blejer said...

Haha, Oh Andy, you have no idea how happy I am that you asked the big "A" question. It may not come as a complete shock to you that I have some opinions on the topic. Again, it's a big question so the answer will be long, obviously if for that reason someone chooses not to read it I won't be crushed. If you disagree though I’d love to hear it. Since the post is so long, I’ve also posted it on my website’s blog which has wider margins (and I’ve included a picture with a sassy caption). It can be seen at Mikecomedy.com


The question is comedy Art is I think just like the question "is drawing Art?" The answer is of course, a resounding "sometimes." I would say that Art is the employing of certain techniques filtered through a specific perspective to reflect on what we lovingly and pretentiously refer to as “the human condition.” A child’s muddy footprint isn’t typically considered art (except by assholes and postmodernists, aka assholes) because there’s no intention, perspective or technique behind it. So essentially I have a perspective and I want to communicate it in some way, and I use expressive techniques like painting or music or sculpting to get it across. Joke-writing and oratory skills are some of the comedian’s techniques.

Comedy is tough because it’s not very forgiving. The sound of an audience watching a brilliant dramatic play is about the same as the sound of an audience watching a mediocre dramatic play. Not so with comedy. Laughter is the bottom line and drug-like fix that comics are all chasing after, so it’s not shocking that you say that you don’t see young comedians being subversive, because to be frank, they’re mostly just trying to figure out how to get laughs, which is why there’s a lot of them going for the gross-out/uncomfortable laugh or the hacky “so guys be loving blowjobs, am I right? High five!” laughs, because those are fairly easy to get (by the way, I realize that I’m a young comedian too, but I say “them” just because I’m talking in the abstract and not about a specific group of anyone in particular). And I will say that making people uncomfortable is not in and of itself subversive, though they are sometimes linked it’s a common mistake to conflate them (hence the overuse of ironic references to rape in the alternative comedy scene).

And on top of all of that, there’s no one really teaching comedy. Unlike other arts which have conservatories and majors associated with them, comedy has no such formal instruction, which means the burden is entirely on the individual to do all these things at once, and it’s a heavy burden.
I actually do believe that joke-writing and oratory skills could be taught in a conservatory-like setting just like acting or singing. I know that a lot of people will scoff at this, but I think it’s worth noting that until Stanislavski, acting wasn’t really considered a serious artistic discipline worth studying, and he died in 1935 so this wasn’t actually that long ago. This wouldn’t turn comedy into a machine-like process as some people have suggested (unless you want to say all music that results from formal education is machine-like), because the Art comes at the point of expressing a personal world-view through the process of using comedic techniques in presentation, and individuals can and will find new ways to do it even if there is a formal process (Nicole Kidman is one example of an accomplished but not formally trained actress). Of course since most comedians are really anti-authority and in part because of this a lot drop out of formal education somewhere along the way, it might not work in practice. Anyway, I’m just saying, it’s not an absurd thing to suggest.

The job of the young comedian then is to work on learning his technique but also to develop his perspective. Good technique with no perspective just results in funny hackery, it’ll make the audience laugh in the moment, but it won’t stick with them five minutes after leaving the show. So I think a young comedian needs to take chances, which means there might be more times when he or she doesn’t get laughs early on, but they will hopefully learn from that and develop to be able to have a POV and get laughs, and maybe in time even do something innovative.

The bottom line is that if they want to be Artists, comedians need to take more risks, push themselves to produce work that is personal and couldn’t be written by just anyone. And I don’t think it’s a problem that is just facing young comics, it’s one that older comics face as well (consider how many aging hacks we’ve all seen). With young comics it’s just more glaring because comedy has a steep learning curve and they’re running on multiple tracks, and at the end of the day if no one is laughing, well…

Anonymous said...

This is from Vic Christian:
Andy you hit the nail right on the head. To take it a step further comedy is too click-ish. I remember the Comedy Cafe' and The Comedy connection it was more about how many people you could reach. Comedy is an art form and as other art forms there are genre, but comedy is special it can take the same subject but give totally different views and and perceptions and that is the strength of the art, To make people see thru your eye's hence the term "Crossover".
I proud of you Andy you are a good Comic getting better and you have the balls to say what many guys from that comedy class i.e.:1992-1998 have been feeling but couldn't say wothout sounding like a complainer. Good Job!!!!!!!!!

Anonymous said...

Transformers references and genies and robots and elves are all I got!

Justin Jones

All kidding aside I enjoyed your post and I am grateful that you gave some of your insight.