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Thursday, May 8, 2008

Bitching About People That Bitch

By: Danny Rouhier

You've heard them. You've been at a show when they are bitching about not being able to get on stage. You've heard them complaining about how a certain guy books his show and how it isn't fair. You know who I'm talking about. It's the guys who think they are entitled to something simply because they've told their co-workers and friends 'I do comedy'.

The people I'm talking about are not necessarily bad people. My argument is that they just don't realize how selfish and short sighted it is to bitch about how someone books their show or complain about not being able to get up. Someone might post a counter to this about how comics need an opportunity to get better and it isn't fair if the bookings they want constantly are going to the more established comics while they are left to wonder why.

To quote Jack Nicholson from the Departed: 'No one gives it to you. You gotta take it.'

[hit the jump, bitch]


Let me be clear about something. Performing comedy is, inherently, a dependent art form. In order for one to perform somewhere successfully, a comic is dependent on several factors (booking, venue, audience). At no time, from a guy who is going on for the first time all the way to Brian Regan/Bil Burr, is a comic entitled to anything. He/she should consider it a blessing every single time all the right things happen to allow for a successful performance. It's even more of a blessing once all those external factors allow you to make a living doing something as trivial as standing on a stage, speaking into a microphone at a glorified diner/bar. Comedy clubs make money by selling food and booze. It's nice when they take an active interest in the comedy community by developing and showcasing talent, but it certainly isn't the norm. We as comics need to remember that there are more ways than ever for people to spend their entertainment dollar. We often overestimate the market for live comedy. It's way too easy for consumers to get their entertainment from a myriad of mediums for us to presume that people will just show up at the venue we will be performing at without any work being put in.

Having recently left the DC scene and moved to New York City, there are a number of differences. The most glaring departure I have seen thus far is that the majority of comics up here seem to understand the idea that you have to create your own breaks. If you want stage time, start a show. Your level of involvement is up to you. You can do 0 work, have your show last a couple months, get it canceled and start anew. You can put in a ton of work, build it as best you can, still have it canceled and move on. The point here is that I bet that most of the guys who are pissed off at what they perceive as a small group getting all the work, haven't done near as much work as they think they have. How many shows have you started? Have you gotten a room going so that you can exchange stage time with someone else who has a room? Have you put in work pounding the pavement finding a a great venue where you can eventually get comics some $ for performing? Have you taken it upon yourself to stop waiting for someone to give you something and gone out after it yourself?

No one is responsible for getting you stage time. It's up to you. Instead of bitching about not being able to get on a show, go make a better show. Take responsibility for your own destiny and stop bitching.

51 comments:

Anonymous said...

Wow a guest blogger that is as unfunny as the majority of other little snippets of wisdom that have been collected in this cyberspace garbage dump.

Comedy is supposed to be funny; or am I missing something?

Can you say, "Welcome to McDonalds; we're having a sale on super-sized milkshakes today, would you like one?"

Unknown said...

Can't say that I totally agree with everything Danny wrote. But, in accentuating the positives of what he said, I think that all of the pro active suggestions are valid. We need to do all of those things: pound pavement, network with other rooms, etc. But when you're eventually running you're own room, please keep the memory of being pissed off and passed over in your head. Just don't be a douche. That's all, and "Anonymous", truce. I don't want to be the brunt of any hurtful comments.... I'm sensitive.

Laters

Anonymous said...

Comedy is supposed to be funny. The discussion of aspects of a comic's experiences don't have to be. They can be bits of advice, opinion, anecdotes, or anything in between. This was an opinion piece, not a particularly good one, but it wasn't going for huge laughs. It did reek of desperation though... almost as much as anonymously typing a zinger comment then changing it a few times before publishing then waiting for other people to chime in and think of all the people I pissed off from behind the curtain.

Also, they never say they're having a sale at McDonald's. It's not like it's the JC Penny in that shopping center by my apartment in Columbia, MD.

Curt Shackelford said...

good post--
touches on something i should have said more clearly when i did DCC4now interview--

comics that are pissed off about not getting enough stage time(at my shows at least)--
the reason is you are probably merely "good" instead of "great".
Why should I (or any booker)put on a good comic when there is a great one standing right next to him?
any booker that puts on a good comic instead of a great one is shooting himself in the foot.

Unknown said...

Curt,

That response was beneath you. Don't shit on most of our area with a response like that. Especially not because a comic that doesn't live here anymore basically stood up for you. If you aren't giving people a chance at grow as comics, "at your shows at least", because they haven't impressed you, that is nothing to boast about. You, or anybody for that matter may run your room(s) as you see fit. But, in the long run, think of how many comics will grow despite your rooms, cause only newbies and a few comics feel welcome there. Then think of how "great" your shows could be with them in it.

Anonymous said...

After reading this I now understand why there is a few comedy clubs in DC.

I have to agree with the Curt guy when he says that booking unfunny comics is not the right thing to do when there are more talented people that deserve to be doing the show.

I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings; but not everyone is good or great at certain things in life. Even though there are friends being supportive of friends doing comedy; it doesn't mean that person is good at the art. It could mean they just have more people in the audience being supportive.

In the grand scheme of things, isn't this about being funny?

Curt Shackelford said...

"Don't shit on most of our area with a response like that"

huh??
since when is being honest taken as "shitting on"?

calling a comic good-but-not-great is not shitting on--it's calling a spade a spade.
Strip away all that brotherly love comraderie and see the comics as a booker sees them.
Good is not good enough when great is readily available.

so why don't I give stage time to good comics so thay can grow to one day be great?
a valid complaint, but why should I let you use my shows as your "training ground" to grow from good to great?
I'd rather use comics that are *already* great. The audience and the venue are my priorities, then come the comics.
but that's where Danny's point comes in:
you guys need to start your own shows so you can have that training ground at your disposal so you can grow from good to great.

Anonymous said...

If DC comedy is as good as some of the blogs that are linked to this site; do yourself a favor get out now before it's too late.

Anonymous said...

To: Anonymous (not the one in Columbia, MD)
From: Everyone

Do the gene pool, the internet, other people who post anonymously, and the entire DC comedy scene a huge favor by sticking a gun (instead of a cock) into your big mouth and pulling the trigger. Do it! Pull the trigger instead of your friend's dick, you batch swallowing jackass. And just for good measure please acquire full blown AIDS first. Don't worry, when you are gone your mother will find something new to fill Mother's Day 2009 to the brim with disappointment.

Odds are you don't have the balls to do it. Just like you can't muster the courage to step on stage, get an erection without thinking of a naked man, or change one of the numerous miserable aspects of your horrific existence. The fear of not succeeding is what limits you to being just an ignorant critic who lobs insults from the shadows at people who are 100x's better than you'll ever hope to be. Most likely you'll be once again limited by your developmental disability and won't follow my instructions. Instead you'll type up some shit you think is a stinging retort. It won't be.
Take my advice and shoot a bullet (not your friend's semen) on the back of your throat. It'll make all of us feel better!


P.S.- Don't forget about the AIDS first.

Anonymous said...

Curt Dickaford wrote:
(good post--
touches on something i should have said more clearly when i did DCC4now interview--

comics that are pissed off about not getting enough stage time(at my shows at least)
the reason is you are probably merely "good" instead of "great".
Why should I (or any booker)put on a good comic when there is a great one standing right next to him?
any booker that puts on a good comic instead of a great one is shooting himself in the foot)




Yes the prostitute speaks again the problem is Mr Dickaford your judgment in comedy is bad!

You don't put up the funniest comics in DC you put up the comics you think are funny and that's the problem you whore! You are a control freak.....

God you make me sick!! I Love that I can say this shit about you and still take your money..

Unknown said...

My blogger account signs me in as "Jeffrey", but just to be clear: this is Jeff Maurer. Way too much anonymous posting going on on this blog.

A lot of good points made in this blog, Danny, but I feel like you left something out: comics need to be funny. It's true: a comic who hustles will always be more successful than a comic who doesn't, but that's not necessarily a good thing. I can think of several comics who are great at hustling but not that great at comedy. Dane Cook probably has the most lopsided hustle-to-talent ratio in the world. My advice to unfunny comics is not: hustle more. My advice to unfunny comics is: quit.

For the record, I don't think Curt was trying to "shit on" anyone with his response. He's just arguing that he puts on the comics whom he thinks will best entertain the audience (plus, obviously, bringers...you've got to have bringers). Isn't that all you can hope for in a booker? Sure, you can disagree with his judgement - we all do sometimes - but I find it very hard to argue with "you're not funny enough."

Anonymous said...

Not Hatin' Just Sayin' if you aren't funny you should quit comedy.

Anonymous said...

Can we all agree that Curt Shackleford sucked as a comic?

He uses booking rooms to get back at the audience who hated him as a comic buy taking money from them!

Shame on you..now bring me a drink!

Mike Blejer said...

In Danny's defense, this article wasn't entitled "All the necessary and sufficient requirements to becoming a great comic." I don't think he "left out" that you have to be funny to be a comic. But that wasn't really the point of this article. Everyone knows that more time will help almost everyone get better (not always good, but better). It would be nice if you could assume the fact that a potential comic needs to be funny to more people than just himself, it seems so obvious that it need not be said. Unfortunately experience teaches otherwise. Anyway, not the point of this blog.

And for my part I think Danny is right about the need to create your own opportunities and also to keep your ears open for potential opportunities.

But I also think that for beginning comics the thing they need to focus on most is just working on their craft. Worrying about getting paid when you first start comedy is a bit like worrying about which wine to serve on your trans-atlantic while looking through the brochure for flight school. Hopefully you'll get to a point where that concern is relevant, but for now just learn how to fly.

Buddy said...

I love DC!

Anonymous said...

Oy vay. I thought we were rid of this Danny guy and his negative negativity. "There are too many hacky comics taking up the stage time, and they're always complaining, and the... blah blah blahgitty blah." Always with the same old complaints. We get it, Danny, you are a great ADD comic and the rest of us are hacky amateurs without ADD. Thank you for reminding us.

And DC4Now, how about more posts about what's good about the DC comedy scene, like your interviews and what not? Less with the negative naybobs (e.g., Danny) and the Solly's tavern bullshit and more with the good stuff. Also, less improv stuff. Jason is a nice guy and a good stand up, but improv is gay (I don't say that in a hateful, bigoted way, but in a constructive and caring way).

Go to hell, Danny.

Mike Blejer said...

You know, I never considered that before, that improv might be gay. I mean for the longest time I thought it was just another legitimate form of comedy that provided a different expression of a person's comic world-view, but no, Anonymous has convinced me, it's gay.

Let us never speak of all this "gay" improv again.

Anonymous said...

Forget the comments about improv being gay; that was an aside and a red herring. It is clever folly to pretend that you don't know why people respond anonymously to a post that takes shots at unnamed comics. Danny says, "You know who I'm talking about," but we don't. It is implied that Jay Hastings is the offending party, since he openly warred with Curt Shaklefart, but Danny and Jay are thick as thieves, so no harm done. Nay, it's the "I do comedy" guys that Danny has in his crosshairs. But why? Are newbies and "hacks" really taking up all the coveted stage time and hurting the DC scene? I don't know. Maybe. But some might argue that they supply an important contrast that underscores how good the good comics are, and how hard it is to do stand up. And who knows, some of them just might develop into good comics. It's really not for Danny to decide, is it? How many of them has Danny actually watched? To how many of them has he ever offered a kind or supportive word? I would guess not many. Usually he just slams struggling newbies from the comfort of his blog nest. I suspect he's not the nice guy that some people say he is. Live and let live, I say. Concentrate on your own act and stop pissing on unnamed "hacks." What a waste of energy and invective. Or be a manchild and name names. Maybe then people will respond directly and without the veil of anonymity. It is absolute horseshit for an established comic to try to bait aspiring comics into commenting openly by heaping derision on them. They're trying stand up just like everyone else who has stepped up to the mic. And I doubt that so-called hacks who contact bookers for stage time are asking, "Am I taking time from a better comic, like Danny Rouhier?" I guess Danny thinks they should just stay home and perform for their stuffed animals on the futon, but the last time I checked we were talking about OPEN mics. The onus is on the bookers to tell comics that they aren't good enough to make the cut. Or Danny, I guess, if he'd be more direct. This is an unstructured kind of game. If no one tells you to hang it up, you press on. And even if someone does have the stones to tell you that you suck, you still press on. If you try and try and still can't get stage time, you perform for your stuffed animals on the futon. That's the way it works -- and not because Danny Rouhier said so.

Mike Blejer said...

I really don't mean this as an attack on you anonymous poster, but to me it kind of sounds like you're projecting some of your insecurities on to Danny. I didn't read "you know who I'm talking about" to mean a specific person who he wasn't naming, I read it to mean a "kind of person," i.e., one who believes they're entitled to something that they're not, i.e., time. It's true that shows are open mics, but that doesn't ipso facto mean that the booker has to book anyone who asks.

Maaaybe I'm grossly misreading Danny's comment, but it seems like he's just saying that you have to go and make opportunities for yourself (because comedy is unstructured just as you said), and that it's lame when people complain about not having opportunities presented to them. Which... I pretty much agree with.

In my case I saved up to buy a video camera and offered my services recording shows in part because I knew it was a bargaining chip to get on weekly at shows like Dremo's which was a show I really liked being on. When Dremo's folded I started looking around for other stuff and eventually that's what led to me co-producing Steal This Show with Kyle Martin. I'm not getting paid to run that show or anything, and I don't just do it out of the kindness of my heart (my heart is kind, but it's a fucking hassle). I do it because I want to have guaranteed stage time and the chance to improve my crowd work, plus it lets me get on comics I like and, again, acts as a bargaining chip so I can get on other peoples' shows.

And no, the onus is not on comedy bookers to tell comedians to stop doing comedy. If a booker doesn't ever put you on his show then that's his way of telling you. He doesn't have any responsibility to hold your hand and let you down gently. I think you're getting comedy bookers confused with girlfriends or doctors.

No offense to Curt either, but if he doesn't book me ever again then that's fine, I'll just go make other opportunities for myself, because that's what stand-up is like.

Incidentally, it's not as though I'm coming at this as some sort of huge Danny Rouhier comedy fan, which is not to say I have anything against his comedy either, I just don't think that's the point of this blog at all... nowhere in his post did he say any of the things you claimed he said about him being so great or about newbies and hacks taking all the space or that they should stay home and perform for animals. Just the opposite, he said they should fucking hustle and make opportunities for themselves, stop complaining and do something about it... He's talking about people who blame all their difficulties on other people, which, to be honest, kind of seems like what you were doing in your response.

I'm sorry if this comes across as harsh, it's genuinely not my intent to hurt your feelings with this.

Unknown said...

I thought the last anonymous poster was just "keepin' it real", but not in a joking way. That's how he feels, he spoke it and he shouldn't be criticized for it. I don't know Danny, but to be honest, didn't care for this blog. I think the last anony blogger made some valid points and how can you disagree that he took unnamed shots at people?! Maybe he wasn't talking to anyone in our area, cause he certainly doesn't live her anymore, but I guarantee he had someone in mind. As far as people being forced to post anonymously, that is also true. No one wants to be the guy who told Danny, "F*ck your blog, go b*tch about that", so they have to speak without a name.

And Mike, you are more than welcome to trim down your comments before you hit post. I can't just read your comments all day, I have work to do to.

Mike Blejer said...

I'm not making anyone read my comments.

If you want to read them that's fine, and I'd love to hear your thoughts. If you don't that's fine too. If you want to read them but then whine about how I should write less, well boo fucking hoo.

People can feel whatever they want to feel, but when they start supplying reasons for those feelings which are not backed up by reality they aren't protected from criticism just because it's "how they feel." This is the problem with the whole "entitled to one's own opinion" line of arguing, it confuses entitlement in the sense of "the right to not be killed you for your opinion" with entitlement in the sense of "justified possession of a thing or idea"", and winds up with people claiming "I have this opinion therefore it is justified and no one can say I'm wrong." And that's bullshit. If I claim that I feel like someone is irresponsible and my reason for "feeling" that way is because I had a dream about them messing my room up, I'm wrong to hold that opinion, because it's not based on reality. The only kind of opinions which ARE protected from criticism in this way are personal subjective ones like "my favorite color is blue." No one can tell you that you're wrong about that, but if you're of the opinion that Stalin was a nice guy, well that's just wrong.

As for whether Danny was taking shots at unnamed comedians... Any time you make a general observation which includes a criticism you are "taking shots" at unnamed people." That doesn't mean we should never criticize any kind of behavior. There is a big difference between saying "there's this guy I know who is an asshole and I wish he would stop, but I won't say his name" vs. "There are people who are assholes because XYZ and they should stop." Although he used the phrase "you know who I'm talking about" the context suggests that the implied reading was "you know the 'TYPE' of person that I am talking about." (for instance following it up with "It's the guys who..." ). This is the kind of criticism which is healthy for a community to engage in, discussing the problematic behavior and not just attacking specific instances of people who exhibit it.

The whole thing isn't that big a deal, I'm just shocked by the lack of reading comprehension and reasoning skills displayed in these kinds of assertions. Given that, it's no wonder that the same people get upset when I write anything longer than a paragraph.

Unknown said...

Mike, I really don't know why you're last comment was so angry and bitter. While yes, you are long winded, do I really give a $#!t.... NO. I was joking with you. Perhaps you are taking this whole blog thing a little too serious. But, the thought of a pretty young man who plays the guitar swearing at me (Boo F*cking hoo, are you f*cking serious?!!).... Well, I find it pretty hilarious. So there, you made me laugh. See you around.

Unknown said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Mike Blejer said...

I'm not angry if that's how it came across, it's just my rhetorical style.

It just seems kind of bizarre to me that every time I write a long post someone feels the need to comment on how I could shorten it, and I'm telling you now, thanks, but that's ok. I'm going to write what I write and you are more than welcome to not read or respond to it, it just seems absurd to keep reading them and then complaining, as though someone was forcing you to do so. I'm no one's teacher and I'm not trying to be -- these are my opinions, backed up with what I see as good arguments for them, they are not reading assignments.

And again, not angry when I say this, but I also don't care if it made you laugh. This isn't my comedy. My comedy is my comedy, and if you don't like that, well I suppose that's fine too. Can't appeal to everyone, not going to try.

I realize my rhetorical style can be a bit brusque, that's because of my background, but I don't mean anyone any offense except when I explicitly say things like, oh I don't know... "kill yourself."

Anyway, despite what some people will claim I'd really rather not make this thread about me. I'm just trying to respond to the original piece and the comments below.

Mike Blejer said...

And just to preempt any claims that I just wrote a bunch about me -- obviously I had to talk about myself to respond to the last comment since it was directed at and about me. My point was just that now that that's done I hope the conversation will go back to discussing the original post...

Bleh. This blog makes me feel dirty sometimes :-D

Anonymous said...

You meant respectfully, right?

- A different anonymous party

Anonymous said...

:) yea i did. Or Maybe I didn't Anonymous...maybe just maybe.

Anonymous said...

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn182/SanDeigo1984/demetri.jpg

Anonymous said...

http://tinyurl.com/5wc7gw

Mike Blejer said...

I'm almost honored that you hate me so much that you would spend the time to alter a photograph like that, but if the best you've got is the same old "you're like Demetri" shit then you're clearly not terribly intelligent. Go watch my awesome room set. Go watch my joke every day material. Go... I don't know, kill yourself.

If you don't have an appreciation for subtlety, process or development, then maybe comedy isn't the right thing for you.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous 20
Blejer - 0

Mike, got to hand it you. Your arrogance even overshadows the absolute shredding you've received by anonymous here.

Anonymous said...

http://tinyurl.com/6xuh2h

Anonymous said...

Hey look, I can make multiple posts so I can say something and then agree with myself too!

Mike Blejer said...

No You can't!

Anonymous said...

Yes I can!

Anonymous said...

What do you guys think?

Anonymous said...

Well I agree, but I'm just you making another post.

Anonymous said...

Good point. It's almost like this whole anonymous posting thing is retarded!

Anonymous said...

Almost.

Mike Blejer said...

The reason that all I have to say is "kill yourself" is because I'm don't need to respond to that kind of ridiculous attack. I was commenting on the post on the blog and some asshole decided to make it another attack Mike comment thread. I honestly have no desire to get into ridiculous shouting matches and I DEFINITELY don't have to defend myself against some insecure asshole who keeps shouting "Demetri" every time I say something because he thinks it makes him the winner in sort of bullshit competition that he made up in his head.

I figure he needs to either grow up or kill himself, and given the choice, I'd prefer he chose Plan B. God knows I wish his parents had.

I think I'm done posting on this thread too.

Anonymous said...

what was this thread about?

Mikael J said...

I'm still on the fence whether to watch 2Girls1Cup.com...I need to! But I can't...but I need to!

Curt Shackelford said...

I challenge Anonymous dude to a fist fight--bare knuckles--no weapons

we'll sell $5 tickets and hold it Dremo's parking lot--

You're prolly 1/2 my age but i bet i'm in better shape.
winner gets all the $$

no joke--let's do this.

Tyler Richardson said...

Curt?!!... I'm impressed, no way I could miss that.

Buddy said...

Curt! You did it! You finally shut up anonymous!!! All hail the King of DC Comedy!!!!

Anonymous said...

damn I wish I was anonymous, that'll be the easiest money he ever makes in comedy

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Scott Moran said...

Danny is right. If you don't like what the club scene has to offer you all need to band together and run the scene the way you think it should be run. If it is good, the audience will come. If you start a community rather than ripping each other, you will succeed. I know this for a fact because we did it in Seattle. The alt scene we created there now gets more recognition than the clubs. And there is stage time every night of the week outside of the clubs. It took 2 years to accomplish, but it can be done. It's about community, not shitting on one another.

-Scott Moran

Curt Shackelford said...

heard a great quote that hammers home Danny's point:

"control your destiny or someone else will"

e.g.-- if you don't like the way a show is run, create your own show

Anonymous said...

Apparently there's been some rumors that I am the anonymous poster. Flattering, but I would like to dispel them. The only comic I publicly/anonymously hate is Irwin... and its not even some melodramatic bullshit over him taking up too much stage time, or not booking enough new people - I just don't like jews.

I don't know you, Mike Blejer, but you need to calm down. This rivals the time that Diesel received an anonymous email that said he was a hack, and he spent 15 minutes during the "COMICS TO THE BACK!" publicly correcting the mistakes in the email as if all of us had wrote it... and then ending on, "but I don't give a shit... fuck that guy." Also then telling people how he was "tracing the IP address."

Anyhow... I'm not anonymous. I've been too busy playing Mario Kart. PS... Friend Code: 0989 2118 2242 Email me or some shit... I will destroy you.

Mike Blejer said...

Thanks for the advice?

Anyway, it's not an issue anymore. I haven't really posted on this in a week or so and basically I was spending all the time on the blog while I was at work because my job was painfully boring/mildly soul crushing, but that is no longer an issue. As such I will no longer be needing the emotional outlet provided by online flamewars. I was really just trying to post my thoughts on these articles and whatnot and then I just got sucked into feeding the troll because it was a good diversion; regardless of how it might seem I'm not emotionally invested in it, I just didn't have anything better to do. And now I do. I'm sorry that the blog got caught in the cross-fire (alternatively, "you're welcome" to the people who were enjoying reading this little retarded text-based soap-opera).

Anyway, I'm done, take it easy, I think I'm gonna go for a walk.